Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens happened to me last night.
Still haven’t completely processed. Okay.
Spoiler-free review of sorts below.
Let’s be honest, the real question everyone wants an answer to is whether or not they’re going to be disappointed. And for fans who are really deep into the lore, who know the Legends canon, or who have been postulating about the galaxy following the events of Return of the Jedi, a lot of that is down to you personally. What you find acceptable for this story and these characters and what you don’t is all a matter of perspective. I can’t really answer that for you, so all I can truly say is—
—wow. That felt like a Star Wars film.
It helps that the film does bring us back to characters we know and love, of course; one of the biggest problems that the Star Wars prequels had was selling it’s audience on an entirely different state of the universe with characters who sounded familiar in name, but not much else. The Force Awakens has the luxury of gracing us with the presence of old friends, characters who we love to love, and want to reconnect with. But overstating that ignores the presence of the new characters, who are wonderful. For all that we know nothing about them when the lights dim, by halfway into the film they feel like friends.
I want more of Rey, and Finn, and Poe (and BB-8!). It was perhaps the biggest feat the movie had to pull off, and it managed the task with a sensation of effortlessness that I don’t believe anyone anticipated. So prepare to fall in love with with a few new friends. Be prepared to invest in their stories and be pissed by the end that you have to wait for two more films to know how their stories turn out.
This movie is smart in how it uses its homages. There are plenty of them, set up to mirror A New Hope in a myriad of ways, but they don’t grate the way much of the prequel symmetry did because they feel a little more subtle, a winking nod at what came before. Like Episode IV, the movie excels at painting a new picture of the galaxy with minimal brushstrokes. Just enough information to make us curious, not enough to give it all away. Everyone will come out of it with thoughts and theories and so many questions. John Williams’ score is there, backing this behemoth of an undertaking with the themes that we adore, accompanied by brand new motifs that echo the original soundtracks just right.
The movie is oddly structured, but it helps to make the story unpredictable. There is a lot of thrilling action to go around, lots of new tech, new planets, new aliens, and all of it in the glorious funky technicolor that Star Wars has always done best. I missed this universe. The ease of it, the sensation of fun, the ability to explore endlessly. These films lose the claustrophobia of the prequels; rather than a simple Point A to Point B to Temple C structure, the movements feel less restricted, and offer us the wide range that this galaxy has to offer.
One thing that struck me about the film is how expressive everything and everyone manages to be. It’s a common critique for certain aspects of Star Wars to come off “wooden,” but The Force Awakens goes out of its way to warm things up. BB-8 is staggeringly vocal and mobile, stormtroopers give off actual personality under their armor, even Chewie (a known quantity to Star Wars fans) is suddenly graced with more movement, reactions, and subtlety. It’s fascinating to stumble into this organic quality, and hopefully something that future Star Wars films will continue to excel at.
There is heartbreak here. Heartbreak on par with the most painful moments of the Star Wars saga. It’s strange to realize that The Force Awakens, for all the light-hearted adventure it brings, is a very dark tale. That despite all the enjoyment there is to be had, the oblique dance this film is doing with the events that occurred post-Return o the Jedi informs us of a great deal of tragedy that we have to drink in slowly. It takes time to absorb this new flow of events, more time than the film can allot for–expect to be mulling it over long after the credits have rolled.
Throughout all of this, Episode VII stays true to the fundamentals of what Star Wars is–the interplay of good and evil. Order and rebellion. Family and causes. And, of course, the nature of the Force and the question of its will.
There’s already too much hyperbole surrounding this film, and I don’t feel inclined to add to it. Saying it’s the “greatest” Star Wars film outside Empire Strikes Back is a premature exercise at best when we don’t know the entire shape of this new trilogy. But I’m firmly on board with more of this story, with the journey of these characters, with the chance to explore the universe that the Empire and Rebel Alliance left in their wake. It feels like an exciting time to be a Star Wars fan again. What’s more, it’s an exciting time to watch a new generation become Star Wars fans. I cannot wait to stumble across tiny Resistance pilots, and little girls who walk around with BB-8s at their heels. You can be sure that this film will call more people to the fold, and that’s a welcome state of affairs; it’s no fun being part of a fandom that slowly disappears into the Dune Sea.
The Force Awakens. Suddenly, the name seems somehow more appropriate. We were, all of us, lying in wait for this return. And now we must all wait a little bit longer, as we have in decades past, to the see this story through.
Emmet Asher-Perrin is incredibly impressed with herself for getting through that review and not spoiling a damn thing, but please hurry up ad see the movie because she wants to taaaaaaalk about it. You can bug her on Twitter and Tumblr, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.
Hi all,
Let’s keep this thread SPOILER-FREE for those who haven’t had a chance to see the film yet. If you want to talk spoilers (and wow do we ever!), we’ve set up a spoiler thread at this link:
Star Wars: The Force Awakens Tor.com Spoiler Thread
Full disclosure; I am the largest Star Wars fan I know. I had to wipe away tears several times during this movie. Normally that would be an excellent sign that it was fantastic, but in this case, the tears started flowing when the blue letters came on the screen informing us that all this took place “A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away…” so my tears are probably not the best indicator of quality in this particular case.
More objectively, The Force Awakens is good, but its not Empire good, not even close. Its not even A New Hope good, really. Its about Return of the Jedi good. Return of the Jedi is my favorite film of all time, but I understand its weaknesses. I didn’t love The Force Awakens the way I love Jedi, and I’m unlikely to ever do so. But still, I enjoyed the movie immensely last night. If you really, really like Star Wars, you will really, really like this movie.
See you in the spoiler thread!
I’m both impressed at how conscientious everyone has been about avoiding spoilers and disappointed that it’s been taken to such an extreme that I still have no idea what the movie’s plot is. I mean, to me, spoilers aren’t any and all information about a movie, just key revelations that would ruin the important surprises. Knowing that TESB climaxes with Luke fighting Vader isn’t really a spoiler; knowing that it ends with Vader revealing himself to be (you know what) definitely is. I think it’s that specific revelation, and the fear of having something comparable blown, that’s led to the modern spoilerphobia.
But when these movies originally came out, the novelizations and comic book adaptations were released first, to drum up interest for the movies. I went into at least the original 1977 movie with full knowledge of its plot, because I’d read the novel first. And it didn’t ruin the experience, because knowing the story was not the same as knowing how it was told and presented and performed, which was the really impressive part. The impact of the opening shot of the saga isn’t the fact that a Star Destroyer is chasing a Rebel Blockade Runner; it’s the experience of seeing them fly over the camera.
Of course, if I wanted full spoilers before seeing the movie, I’d read the spoiler thread, and I don’t think I want to do that. I’d like to stay in suspense about some things. But I wish there were some comfortable middle ground between “spoil everything” and “be as vague as possible,” something where I could get some idea of the actual plot structure and the characters’ roles without the key surprises being ruined. I.e. basically how movie reviews are usually done. Although I’m not quite sure where I’d like that balance to lie. These days there’s a certain novelty to going into a movie and not knowing what the story will be.
I saw it last night and thought it was phenomenal! Great blend of action, character development, fun eye candy, moving scenes, and a death star worth of fun. Lots of not obnoxious homages to the originals, but it didn’t feel forced or contrived. The new characters are great and easy to root for (or against in the case of the villains).
How does it compare to the originals? Tough to say now, but after 24 hours I am still inclined to put it within their pantheon of greatness. Might come out to be generally considered on par with New Hope since I doubt the people who adore Empire (whose numbers I do not count myself a member of) could find any movie that they would consider to be as good or better than Empire.
All in all, more than worth the price of admission!
@ChristopherLBennett
Viewers are simply trying to be respectful of other viewers. That’s it. Stop trying to make a thing out of this.
This film made me so very happy. Staw Wars is cool again. My BB8 is in the mail.
Thinking on it a little, i’d compare what we’ve seen in TFA with what happens when a football team fires one manager and hires another. Things were bad, and now what’s needed is stability. This film is that stability. It’s kinda safe and familiar, but that was just what was needed. All IMHO of course.
I loved Chewbacca. I mean, he has always been a great character, but he was much less purely a sidekick. Like all the original characters, he felt older, more experienced, and more confident in himself, but definitely the same person. It was wonderful to see that kind of nuance in a character whose speech we can’t even understand. Good direction and good acting.
Guess I am the only disappointed one. It was a retelling of a New Hope with new characters, hopefully once the hype of the bright, shiny, and new wears off, the fans will notice it was more parody then new film. Loved seeing old friends, but couldn’t help feeling that I had seen the story before.
It was certainly better than Episodes I, II, and III. Maybe a little better than Episode VI. Maybe. Very much on the right track and I’m looking forward to the next installment. I expect as the story transitions more and more to the new characters I will enjoy it more than the originals.
Without getting spoilery, the one thing that bothered me (at a Jar Jar level) was a moment when four planets were depicted hanging closely in space together in a way that doesn’t make sense as four planetary orbits, and light from an event in one system is visible in the sky of a planet in another as the event is happening. The rest of the saga depicts planets and star systems realistically: planets orbit suns light-years apart, meaning that light takes years to get between them.
It was otherwise a thoroughly enjoyable film.
I instantly cared about the three new characters, new droid, and new antagonist in a way that I never warmed up to the core three of the prequel trilogy. And if they’d gotten the performance that Adam Driver gave out of Hayden Christiansen, the prequel trilogy wouldn’t have sucked. (Except for Jar Jar.)
@5/swario: I’m not “trying to make a thing” out of anything. I’m not criticizing anyone’s choices, and I don’t know why you would interpret an analytical, musing post as a confrontational one. In fact, I thought I made it clear that I’m ambivalent about my own position — I’m not quite sure how much or how little I want to know. I’m not “making a thing,” I’m just commenting on my state of mind.
@11/sue: I’ve never found Star Wars to be particularly realistic. It’s blatantly a fairy tale in space. Heck, in Episode II they had a sonic weapon operating in space, and in Episode III they had the direction of gravity shifting inside a tilting starship as if there were some external gravity in space. And there’s no way a moon as small as the Forest Moon of Endor could hold an atmosphere, or that a giant worm monster could live in an asteroid belt (what the heck does it feed on?). There’s never been any attempt at scientific accuracy in this franchise; why start now?
Although the bit about an event on one planet/system being visible in the sky of another is a trope Abrams used in Star Trek, and I wasn’t exactly crazy about it there. At least it was in the context of a mind-meld sequence, so I could interpret it as figurative.
@13:
Sonic weapon? Missed that one. What was it?
As far as gravity, they were within the gravity well of Couruscant at the time, not in hard vacuum.
This particular lapse in judgement is way worse than anything Star Wars has had before, and its way, way worse than the Star Trek moment you are referencing. It threw me, a Star Wars apologist, completely out of the story.
@13:
Also, how do we know the size of the Forest Sanctuary? And what if the space worm lives of the asteroid minerals? I distinctly remember giant space creatures that ate nebulae gas in Star Trek stuff.
Grinned the whole way through.
(Yep, sure some of that was first-time hype, etc…but wow, I still *really* enjoyed this movie). Well done, all involved.
Biggest positive for me? The new actors were simply fantastic. All the new characters – I enjoyed and loved seeing just as much as the “oldies”. Felt every single one of them nailed their characters. Huge positive. Also felt the movie looked very “pretty” and shot very artistically(for the most part!). The story itself can be claimed to be slightly unoriginal, which I’m not disputing. But the whole movie was executed so well…and the story itself is such a good one…I honestly can’t complain. And the final scene/shot. Perfect ending. I haven’t been this happy with a movie in a long time. One more note – the humor was fantastic. So many moments where the whole theatre laughed out loud. Real humor, not forced…much appreciated!
I will be seeing this movie again next week…and hope that my opinion does not change.
@14/Anthony Pero: I’m thinking of that scene in AOTC where Obi-Wan was following Jango Fett’s ship into a planetary ring system (I think it was) and Fett set off these depth-charge sort of things that were this expanding ring-shaped wave of light (itself an absurdity in 3-dimensional space) accompanied with this awesome BWAAAAAAANNNNNGGG sound that I believe was generated by the musical instrument known as the Blaster Beam, also used in the scores for Star Trek: TMP, The Wrath of Khan, 2010, and others. Now, looking into it, I believe the weapon was actually referred to as a seismic charge rather than a sonic charge, but “seismic” and “sonic” both pertain to vibrations in a medium, so they’re almost the same thing (hence my confusion) and equally absurd to apply to something in the vacuum of space.
And gravity doesn’t work that way. Gravity has nothing to do with atmosphere vs. vacuum; I’ll never understand where people get that notion. After all, the Sun’s gravity is what holds the Earth and planets in orbit, and the galaxy’s gravity is what holds its stars together, and so on. So obviously gravity is everywhere in space. But you only feel weight and a sense of up and down if you’re pulled by gravity against something that stays in place against the pull, like solid ground or the floor of a building. If you’re in a spaceship or station in orbit, then you and it are free-falling at the same rate, so you’re not preferentially drawn in any one direction relative to the ship or station and thus have no perception of up and down within it. So if you’re in a ship that’s either in orbit or falling out of orbit, then you’re in free fall by definition and feel no weight, and changing the orientation of the ship will not change your perception of up and down or cause you to fall against the “lower” wall.
@15: Well, for one thing, it’s called the Forest Moon, which implies something smaller than a planet. And apparently its official size is comparable to Mercury’s.
@3 CLB, Anti-Gamergate feminists have been targeted by trolls on Twitter, specifically to spoil TFA for them.
“And now we must all wait a little bit longer, as we have in decades past, to the see this story through.”
I loved this movie–the humor, the new characters, the female strength, the familiar landscapes. TFA is as much an homage as it is a sequel. It made me feel 13 again, when I saw the first film in a tiny theater in my hometown and was instantly transfixed by the opening scroll. At the time, I remember reading that there were plans to make 9 in all, three years apart, and I could hardly contain myself thinking of how long I’d have to wait for the last one (I’d be 37!!). Little did I know I’d be 51 and happy to be still waiting and thinking about the Star Wars universe.
@18/Aeryl: Are you responding to my comment about how “everyone” was being conscientious with spoilers? Otherwise I’m not sure why you directed that observation at me specifically. I didn’t mean to include the lunatic fringe in that comment, of course — just the professional reviewers, mainstream bloggers, and the like. It’s rare these days to see so many people cooperating to avoid spoiling a film.
If anything, I’d think the particular type of troll you mention would be up in arms about this movie, condemning it and accusing it of destroying masculinity or whatever by having a female main character, like they did with Mad Max: Fury Road. I’m so happy that today’s genre films are making misogynistic morons like that feel offended. I get a thrill of satisfaction every time I see a news item or post reminding me that Daisy Ridley is actually the lead of this film, not a supporting player. It’s awesome to see how inclusive this film is, even without having seen it yet.
Good enough with the gravity. I’m not sure established canon has the size of endor. It is orbiting a gas giant.
@20, I was bringing that up because IMO, a recognition of that kind of behavior has got people who are not a part of the “lunatic fringe” more considerate about their own actions.
And yes, all the MALE TEARS over this.
@22/Aeryl: Ah, I see. I figured that people were just being extra-considerate about it this time because it’s Star Wars, and that has somehow come to have a special cachet compared to other SF/fantasy franchises. And we’ve got, like, 35 years of cultural baggage built up over “Oh, no, they spoiled me about ‘I am your father’ when I was walking into the theater” and the like. That was pretty much the biggest spoiler in modern SF/F media lore, so that would motivate SW fans — and journalists wishing to avoid the ire of SW fans — to be extra-extra-careful about spoilers for this movie as opposed to something like Batman v Superman or Star Trek Beyond or whatever.
Ultimately, I think that it turned out to be what I expected, which was not surprising, as JJ Abrams is a fairly predictable/dependable director. More direct-homaging than I’d like, but tons of energy and a snappy pace. The new character are terrific, especially Daisy Ridley, brilliant in her role. It’s fascinating to finally see Star Wars visually orchestrated–action, cinematography–by a team not commanded by George Lucas. It’s healthy to get some new blood in the mix. Overall, a solid re-awakening. I’d put it squarely in the middle of the now-seven films, maybe slightly higher.
I would also like to thank the universe and anyone applicable out in it. I wasn’t ambushed with spoilers and was thus able to experience a few of the big moments spontaneously. It’s a relief to finally be on the other side, and I’m very much looking forward to Episode VIII (hopefully its leadup will be a little less frenetic).
Trying not to be spoilery here, but since someone else brought up the lack of light-speed lag, yeah that bothered me too–but it can perhaps be justified thus: since the technology involved was specifically described as “superluminal”, it’s possible that instantaneous visibility at long range was a side effect, possibly deliberately engineered, so as to increase the psychological warfare/terror factor.
As for the orbital positions, I got nothing; chalk it up to artistic license, or call it a symbolic shot.
@Aeryl – not sure what you mean by “MALE TEARS”. Are we supposed to be upset that Rey is the lead? Not one bit upset about that here. (Upset about a few other things, but that’s a discussion for the spoiler thread.) Daisy Ridley did a fantastic job. Really sold the part. Couldn’t have been more impressed. In fact, I haven’t heard a single guy complain about there being a female lead. I’m not saying there isn’t some guy out there doing that, but let’s not try and turn some random trolls into some global male conspiracy.
@26/Nick31: While you’re certainly correct, the problem with that kind of “Not All Men…” response is that it diverts attention from the real issue and it doesn’t need to be pointed out anyway. Women already know that not all men are like that, and we aren’t the victims here, so getting defensive or prideful about our own enlightenment is not an effective way to be allies for the women being insulted, harassed, or worse by the men who are like that.
Since Aeryl put the phrase in all caps, I take it that she was lampooning the exaggerated preoccupation with MALEness that this particular category of misogynists tends to have, this hyper-macho image that’s so fragile that it can’t tolerate the idea of gender equality and thus feels compelled to paint the equality of women as some kind of assault on masculinity. That’s clear enough from context, I think.
@ChristopherLBennett – Yes, I’m in agreement with you that the “Not All Men…” response isn’t an effective one to a real problem. It’s true in general as well. Just saying “Not All [insert whatever group]…” isn’t a good way to deal with any problem that clearly is related to some significant portion of said group. But it’s not what I’m saying. I don’t think there IS a real problem here. If there are guys who feel threatened by the movie having a female lead, it’s not because they’re male. It’s because they’re insecure little jerks who are looking for things to whine about. That happens regardless of gender. Calling it “MALE TEARS” paints it as being a guy problem, but the fact that they’re male isn’t really the issue.
I agree on most points of the review: The acting was much better than the acting in the prequels. The pace was fast and there was plenty of action.
however, I felt the film’s plot was far too predictable. It feels like they basically combined plot elements from episodes 3 and 4 and used some new characters as substitutes.
Saw it in imax 3D, wwhich was worth the $20. There was one shot, where the Weapon of Doome was firing, that I could swear was exactly the same as a shot from the Star Trek reboot. Right down to the cgi lens flare.
There was also a shot of a Star Destroyer where the 3D was too obvious, and took us right out of the movie. When several people say “cool effect!” uring a shot, it’s too obvious.
Speaking of the audience. Other than clapping and cheering, they were quiet the whole way through. Saw lots of people turning off their cell phones (rather than putting them in silent mode) before it started. Didn’t hear one phone go off during the entire movie. Can’t remember that last time that happened.
@11: I believe that was supposed to be a planet and its moons, not four planets. It’s Hosnian Prime, if you want to dig into it.
As for the interplanetary visibility…blah blah hyperspace weapon blah blah lensing effect? That bothered me too…but only after I got home.
(Seen it twice now. It gets better with repeat viewings.)
@28/Nick31: Calling it “MALE TEARS” is not directed at all men, just at that particular group of misogynists and their preoccupation with their masculine identity as something that’s supposedly threatened by the inclusion of women. To them, in their twisted view, their maleness is the entire issue. I don’t mean to speak for Aeryl, but it seems pretty clear to me that that’s what Aeryl was mocking — the fact that they pride themselves on being hypermacho all-caps MALES, and yet are so whiny and insecure about it that they get all tearful and angsty about how they’re being victimized by gender equality.
That was… disappointing, to put it mildly.
Lets be honest: The Force Awakens is a weak film, and poorly executed. It has it’s moments, but there is just too much of the bad stuff in it for me to rate it even as average.
The story is rehash of episode 4, and I swear they even copied scenes and dialogues fomr some fights. The characters are rehash of the characters from previous episodes, their behavior and actions panned out in a same way, but forced and in many cases unnatural development; if this was a reboot, it might make sense, but this should be a film that continues on events from previous ones. These character should be new characters, not i.e. Han 2.0
I had no connection to the characters and thier fates. Dramatic events that should be the emotional pinnacle of the movie were telegraphed in advance, completely predictable, and when they played out my only reaction was… “a-ha”. No tension, no involvement.
I’ll leave bunch of other stuff for Spoliery thread.
It FELT like Star Wars movie, but if I did not know better, i would say it is just expensive fan movie, and not a good one at that.
I understand the hype around the movie, and I was glad the Star Wars are coming back, but after screening it it left bitter taste in my mouth.
Half of the people in the cinema had sour faces after the lights went up. Maybe they were as dissapointed as I was, maybe the pop corn was stale, or maybe they had same fear as I had. Episode 7 sucks and chances that following movies will be any bettter are slim. But we will still cash out the cinema ticket because… Star Wars. We love them. And powers that be and make them know it, and they don’t care to make them better, because cash will still flow in.
I guess the plight of the Stormtrooper from the South Park episode “China Probrem” will not end. Only the faces banging him are changing…
Sadly, for me the answer is no :( But I suppose I’ll leave more for the spoiler thread.
There were a lot of things I loved/enjoyed but a lot of overall things that just left a bad taste in my mouth, and I felt a really heavy feeling while walking out of the theater. Emily’s article about ANH during the rewatch and how it contains joy perfectly encapsulates why this version of Star Wars just isn’t for me – there is no joy. They took all my least favorite parts of the EU and combined them here.
@CLB: I sent you a private message talking just a little about the plot of The Force Awakens, but still avoiding major spoilers, and even a good deal of minor ‘spoilers’. Feel free to read or not read at your discretion.
@35/crzydroid: Thanks!
31: Yes, they did rehash many of the same characters and made them too similar to previous characters from the series or other stories, but this is also something Star Wars has always done. And I agree the emotional high points from the film can be telegraphed far in advance by genre-savvy viewers.
But what makes this film an improvement is the much better acting. The acting in the prequels is very stiff and forced, like actors are just reading lines rather than living the roles, and the originals are pretty amateurish in the acting department. This episode feels much more polished and professional in the acting department.
@28 CLB: Have you noticed most of the toys and tie-in merchandise being released depicts the villains and droids, not the female protagonist? Is it because parents wont buy items like a female doll or blanket for boys to use?
@38/RMS81: No, it’s that the toy companies falsely assume that female action figures won’t sell. I gather that a lot of consumers out there are increasingly frustrated with the toy industry’s deep-rooted sexism and are pushing for more inclusive marketing. But I gather that Lucasfilm and at least some of their merchandising partners have been trying to be more egalitarian about it.
@CLB, you are right, but I bet there is still quite a bit of ridicule amongst young kids in the USA who are seen as crossing gender lines. Although this was in the 80s, I vividly remember being loudly mocked when I brought She Ra dolls to show in kindergarten at age 6. There is no question our society has become more tolerant since then, but children still do engage in gender stereotyping and ridicule.
@40/RMS81: Yeah, but boys aren’t the only ones who buy toys. That’s the thing the marketers aren’t getting. Genre fandom today is just as heavily female as male, and that includes children. There are tons of little girls out there who love Star Wars. And the toy and merchandise companies are idiots if they fail to market to half their audience.
To get ready for the new movie, I watched the Clone Wars on Netflix. I am now very, very angry about the Prequels. Clone Wars characterizes Anakin very well, and seeing Anakin as a real hero, and mentor, as well as friend of Obi Wan and competent leader is incredible. Watching this will make re-watching Episode 3 a lot more meaningful. Honestly… why wasn’t this the story for the earlier series? Episode I could have been basically Episode II with a little better writing and a bit of Episode I. Episode II could have been the Clone Wars TV movie, and Episode III could have combined a bit of Clone Wars TV + the good parts of Episode III ! The show and movie even humanizes the Clones, which makes Episode III a much more emotional movie!
@42/dpt24 – That is exactly what I say about the prequels, that the first one should have been (a better) Attack of the Clones, i.e. the start of the war. Then the second film should’ve been the actual war, with some of the Jedi/clones character development of the show. Those two films would then have had a more substantive story, and Episode III would only have benefited.
One way to look at it is to just consider the Clone Wars to be the prequels. The films do add a few crucial things, but the animated material delivers on the character and story fronts.
@13 – ‘And there’s no way a moon as small as the Forest Moon of Endor could hold an atmosphere” – why? Is this based on what we know about planets and how atmosphere works? How do we know there aren’t other ways it could work or other science that is yet to be discovered? Its a big universe and I doubt humans who have barely left Earth can know everything about how it all works. But, yeah, its Star Wars—- I hear you there- science doesn’t seem to play a part.
@44/CaptainSheridan: One of the basic tenets of physics, confirmed by abundant observation, is that the same laws apply consistently throughout the universe. Indeed, Isaac Newton’s realization that the same laws control the motion of the planets and the fall of an apple was the foundation of the modern study of physics. And, yes, there’s plenty we don’t know, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
But yes, of course, the point is that Star Wars is not science fiction and has never pretended to be. In Lucas’s own terms, it is space fantasy. It’s a story of myth and magic and sword-wielding knights fighting monsters and dark sorcerors, dressed up with the trappings of high-tech space adventure. So it’s not even trying to be scientifically plausible.
@45 Perhaps Endor benefits from a gas torus, as did several of the moons in Robert L Forwards extremely hard science fiction Rocheworld series?
@45 – I understand about the physics, but even with all the evidence and research, I think its pretty arrogant of humans to assume we know and understand the entire universe. I like keeping an open mind when it comes to how much we really know about how the entire universe works.
It is interesting to pick apart the science in science fiction though based on what we do know.
@47/CaptainSheridan: You completely miss the point. It’s not about “assuming.” That’s the opposite of how science works. Religions and political doctrines make assumptions and arrogantly claim absolute certainty; science is the only mode of human thought that’s designed to question and challenge assumptions and error-check itself as a matter of routine. But that’s exactly the point. You don’t take anything on faith — you demand evidence. If someone wants to claim that the universe doesn’t work the way all our evidence suggests, then yes, maybe it could be, but they have to have evidence for it. Just saying “Well, it could be” is meaningless. If you can show hard evidence that our current scientific understandings are wrong, then of course science will adjust its understanding. That’s what science does all the time. It’s constantly incorporating new ideas and new understandings. Twenty years ago, we expected most planetary systems to be structured like ours, but now we have hard evidence proving that our system is not typical, so we’re changing our models and theories to fit the new evidence. But you don’t just dismiss the existing body of evidence because some random person says “Well, maybe it’s wrong.” That would be making an assumption. Science broadens to include new ideas all the time, but only when there is evidence to justify it. Science never claims to have all the answers; it merely draws conclusions from the evidence it has. The problem is that most people are so used to religions and ideologies and other doctrines that claim to have absolute truth on their side that they don’t understand what scientific thought actually is or how it works. They assume it’s just another dogma when actually it’s the antidote to dogmatic thought.
An open mind is good, but that includes being open to the possibility that you could be wrong, not just that you could be right. It means recognizing that a belief or a desire for something to be possible is not adequate, that you need some evidence from outside yourself before you treat an idea as if it were real. If you want to argue that it’s possible for a small moon to support a biosphere, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how it would do so. You don’t get to claim that yours is the proper default position, because you’re the one who’s arguing against the evidence. Not faith, not arrogance, evidence. So if you want to counter the evidence, you need evidence of your own. Accusing the establishment of being closed to the superior insight that comes from your total absence of knowledge is not having an open mind, it’s being a crackpot. Accusing the establishment of being unfair is the defense of people who are closed to the possibility that they could be the ones who are wrong. And nobody has a truly open mind until they’re open to their own capacity for error, not just other people’s.
It was amazing to see the words, “Episode VII.” But very soon it became clear that nothing that original was going to happen. Another star destroyer crawling overhead. A First Order that looks like a slightly more chromium version of the Empire. If the FO has been reduced to a fraction of its former size, where does it get the resources to build these bloated ships and the overkill to build ever bigger and better deathstars? And why do the Imperial – sorry, FO officers all still speak with British accents? Is there a British Planet of Fascists that supplies all FO officers?
If George Lucas – oh, the horror!– has handled the designs, the FO would have looked different, and the ships would have been fresh designs, reflecting that thirty years had passed. The whole movie would have had its own unique sense of design. The prequels were triumphs of design; compared to them, Force Awakens is all rehash. A desert planet with the same culture as Tatooine, right down to the moisture vaporators, a forest planet, an ice planet-thing complete with snowtroopers….. With this movie, Star Wars has finally undergone true franchization. Every movie will now “feel” like Star Wars, just as Big Macs in Beijing and New Delhi look, taste and smell and “feel” just like Big Macs in Chattanooga or Iowa City, Iowa.
Daisy Ridley is serviceable as Rey, but John Boyega as Finn is the star. He, not she, is more likely to have the break-out, Harrison Ford-type career. Having said that, Ridley is fine, though her early scenes seem too frantic, agitated. Hasn’t she “learned patience” after all those years in the desert? She is a talented actress though; no nonsense here about actors in big commercial movies “not being able to act.” That’s ludicrous.
Some online find fault with the Han and Leia scenes, but I found them pitch-perfect, well-written, bittersweet. It’s obvious that Ford would not have done these scenes until they were polished the way he wanted them, and the same goes for his entire character arc here. This movie partially redeems Return of the Jedi.
The only moments that “felt” like science fiction were Ford’s stuff, his encounter with the smugglers and the back story there, reminiscent like so much else, of the original Star Wars, and some moments early on with Rey in the desert market.
Overall problem with the series: These movies are clogged with so much “spiritual” simplistic force mumbo-jumbo and it gets hokier with every new film, every dark-cloaked dark side bad-guy–a problem that begin with the otherwise impeccable Empire Strikes Back, in which Luke’s character went from an interesting rebel commander and hero who dreamed of being a Jedi to a one-track character on his way to his mystical “destiny.” So it was great to hear some skepticism about the wonderful force, for once, including Han Solo reminding us that he didn’t use to believe in it either.
Not a travesty, but completely unoriginal, this movie will probably come down somewhat in peoples’ estimations as the innumerable, incredibly prevalent plot-holes, coincidences and jarring science illiteracies begin to worm their way into peoples minds, the same flaws of Hollywood hubris that afflict Abram’s Trek reboot.
Re: my above comment: Of course there are no Big Macs in New Delhi! What was I thinking? I should have said a McChicken, but somehow that’s just not an iconic reference. ….
@49/Kevin Lindgren: George Lucas never did his own production designs. He was an editor by training, not a designer or artist. It’s well-known that Ralph McQuarrie was the principal concept artist for the original trilogy, though of course the main artistic decision-making would’ve fallen to the production designers, John Barry on the original and Norman Reynolds on Empire and Jedi.
And Star Wars underwent “true franchisization” the moment Lucas let ROTJ’s plot be shaped by merchandising concerns over story concerns. Don’t pretend that Star Wars was ever some pure artistic endeavour unsullied by capitalism. It’s always been a moneymaking operation. It practically invented modern film merchandising, and it’s always been driven as much by the toys and kids’ clothes and bedsheets and trading cards and whatnot as by the movies themselves.
And Star Wars has always been full of plot holes and bad science. It’s never tried to be plausible; it’s a fairy tale in space. You want plot holes, how about the Falcon‘s ability to cross interstellar space without hyperdrive? Fans have been arguing over that plot hole for 35 years. Then there’s the question of why Leia went straight to the Rebel base on Yavin when she knew that the Death Star was tracking them. (Maybe she wasn’t thinking straight because of her grief at Alderaan, except, oh, wait, she’s less upset about her planet dying that Luke is about Obi-Wan dying.) And how come Stormtroopers can only shoot straight when the plot demands it? And why did Han never repay his debt to Jabba in the three years between movies? And let’s not even get started on all the plot holes created by the prequels. Star Wars has never been some sublime, perfect creation. It’s always been popcorn fare. It’s a B-movie franchise with A-movie production values. It has characters that have captured people’s imaginations, but it’s never had remotely as much brain as it has heart. So there’s no reason to expect TFA to have been anything more than that.
Speaking of plot holes
As others have mentioned, The Force Awakens isn’t a perfect film. However, it is good entertainment and a fine addition to the Star Wars saga. My only complaint is it is too similar to A New Hope. It’s obvious the filmmakers are trying to make a film that satisfies the existing Star Wars fan base as well as those brand new to the SW universe. A sensible approach given the value of this franchise. Unfortunately, the results are a mediocre film that falls short of its potential.
@51 ChristopherL, you’re right of course, Lucas had production designers working under him from the first days when Ralph McQuarrie was jotting down his first sketches of a masked villain that became Darth Vader. Later, of course, he had a huge team of production designers. Dough Chiang, who I believed designed the lovely Naboo fighter in Phantom Menace, comes to mind right away. John Barry, who also did the 1978 Superman as well as Clockwork Orange, was a true visual artist of the highest order. But George, for all his faults, has a great visual sense, equal in my opinion to say for example David Lean (whose look I suppose influenced Star Wars, along with possibly John Ford). Abrams just doesn’t, and that’s okay, he has other strengths, I guess.
You’re right also, it is popcorn fare….. But it’s also more. It achieves artistic heights, sometimes, which approach the level of true filmic greatness, not always or consistently, but in flashes. It’s not Kubrick or Kurosawa, but it’s not schlock either……
But I disagree with you about the science element of the first six movies. Yes, it was full of mistakes, real and inadvertent, and the inevitable fudging that comes with trying to make the plot work after innumerable re-writes. But it has a basic knowledge of the science fictional “consensus universe,” inherited and derived mainly from Asimov and Frank Herbert, not just from the Flash Gordon serials that George watched as a kid, that Abram’s just doesn’t have, or care to grasp. Sure the Falcon went from Hoth system to Bespin without the hyperdrive working, but at least Lucas knew that Bespin was a loooong way away. He knows what a solar system is and what a galaxy is, and even, sort of, what “parsecs” are. Abrams is as ignorant of these things as my great aunt Bess and that’s fine. He could ask the teams of flunkies he has around him, but he won’t. He has his “vision” of people looking up into the sky in awe at the devastation going on 14 lightyears away and he doesn’t care. Even though he’s in charge of both Star Wars and Star Trek. And that’s what I mean by hubris.
@54/Kevin Lindgren: Abrams is not in charge of Star Wars. Kathleen Kennedy is. She owns Lucasfilm and is overseeing the entire SW franchise. Abrams is working for her. He’s the writer and director of only Episode VII, not any of the upcoming films, although he will be an executive producer on Episode VIII (which in feature-film usage is a less powerful position than producer, which is Kennedy’s role on all the upcoming SW films). I’m so tired of this tendency in fandom to fixate on a male creator and treat the woman who’s actually in charge as if she were invisible. I mean, come on, Kathleen Kennedy is one of the most important figures in SF cinema over the past four decades. She’s produced nearly all of Steven Spielberg’s movies, most of Joe Dante’s movies, the Back to the Future trilogy, The Sixth Sense, so many others. Her resume dwarfs that of J.J. Abrams. She’s been nominated for 120 Academy Awards. And now she’s the inheritor of Lucasfilm, the one who’s controlling the Star Wars franchise and the Indiana Jones franchise. Not Abrams — her. And yet genre fandom ignores her very existence. Even in this day and age, they assume the man has to be the one in charge. It’s infuriating.
55@CLB: I think that’s mostly because the only time a producer’s name gets anywhere near the top billing is if they are also a famous director, in which case it’s ‘From the Director of X’ while the actual director gets ignored.
@55 Christopher L, Kathleen Kennedy’s career is not the issue here. She is a mighty poobah in the Disney Empire, ranked #42 on Fortune magazine’s list of most powerful female executives, with a net worth of around $150 million (about the same as Harvey Weinstein) and her task is to hire and fire directors and/or screenwriters and to guide Disney’s Lucasfilm-brand properties along a course of profitability for the indefinite future. No easy task since the inevitable backlash will come sooner or later – the Yoda movie, perhaps?
Kennedy is a powerful executive of the Fortune 500 corporation (currently ranked at #61 on the list) that owns the Star Wars brand and is not concerned with the minutiae we are discussing here. How the starkiller ought to work, the New Republic’s constitution, whether Hosnia Prime should have a ring or not, and so on, do not detain her, I assure you. She no doubt has veto power over major changes to the series that might impact on its long term profitability: Will someone get married? Get a scar? Loose an arm? Do the villains continue? Does it have a happy, sad or ambiguous ending? Et cetera. Kennedy is a high-powered Hollywood executive and corporate boss who has never directed or written a script. Abrams remains the most powerful creative artist involved in both the Star Wars and Star Trek series’ via his Bad Robot production company who is now in the process of carefully passing on control to his successors. According to a recent Cinemablend article, he will “oversee [Episodes 8 & 9] from a safe distance.” That means he and Lawrence Kasdan, having created the main characters, story points and overall style of the series, such as it is, have lain out, along with director/writer Rian Johnson, the direction of the next two episodes, and that he is happy with that direction. Has Abrams stepped back from his director’s roll in both these SF series’ after giving them their initial thrusts? Certainly. Will Johnson or Colin Trevorrow or Justin Lin emerge after successful films with nearly equivalent industry power? …..Possibly. Is Kennedy more creatively involved in these story arcs than Abrams or Rian Johnson? Not a chance. Her producer credits on Episodes 7 & 8 (not 9) reflect her executive power as Lucasfilm president and hands-on brand manager of this financially important property and not her role as a creative artist. That’s in no way meant as a slight against the powerful Kathleen Kennedy, just a reflection of reality. Abrams wanted Matthew Arndt fired when he, Abrams, decided to write the Force Awakens script with Kasdan, and Kennedy went along with this, showing her trust in the director she had hired as the excellent production executive that she is. If anything, you should be complaining that there has never been a female director of a Star Wars movie. Obviously, it’s not Kennedy’s job or Abrams’ status as a male (!) that is the issue here, but the success of Abrams’ creative involvement in these two great SF movie projects, and, in particular, the quality of Force Awakens.
And again, I am not insensitive to Abram’s formidable talents. He is a successful director in the tough film industry. In almost every way that matters he is right to go for the flash of emotional “gut instinct,” the powerful visual moment, over the complaints of fans who he knows are going to see his stuff regardless. But I continue to think this movie, which in many ways is quite moving and beautiful, is also so, seemingly casually, flawed in terms of plot logic, coincidences and internal consistency, as well as basic science literacy, that Abrams really should be criticized for this tendency of his. Its errors are worse even than those of Wrath of Khan —–another movie by an artistically talented but science-fiction-illiterate director who included a ridiculously implausible weapon in his film. And speaking of Star Trek, it’s well known that Abrams doesn’t particularly like the series, that many fans passionately dislike his Star Trek films in return and, I believe, that the status of Star Trek with the public has taken a hit: It used to be regarded as a sometimes campy but humanistic science fiction series that dealt metaphorically with social issues and was fairly well-regarded in the public mind. Sadly, I don’t think it’s thought of that way any more.
@57/Kevin Lindgren: Okay, point taken about Kennedy not being a writer or director. (Although I’m tempted to say George Lucas wasn’t one either.) Still, a lot of people assume Abrams is in exactly the same position here as he is on Star Trek, and I don’t think that’s the case. For one thing, he’s in a more subordinate role, and for another, he’s charged with continuing an existing universe rather than reinventing one in a new form. And he’s working with different collaborators who bring different things to the game — Kasdan being the most important one.
None of that sounds unusual to me in the context of Star Wars. The original movies and the prequels are full of plot logic problems (see above), coincidences (Uncle Owen just happens to buy the droid with the message from Luke’s sister?), and inconsistencies (originals vs. prequels), and again, we’re talking about something that is explicitly and intentionally a fairy tale set in a fantasy version of outer space, so applying “basic science literacy” to it makes as much sense as applying historical literacy to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Indeed, those tendencies of Abrams are exactly what make me think he’s far more ideally suited to Star Wars, which is sword-and-planet space fantasy, than he is to Star Trek, which is soft-to-medium science fiction.
No, just that he isn’t a fan per se. But then, neither was Nicholas Meyer, and people liked his Trek movies. It’s a myth that you have to be a fan of something to do it well. Meyer and Harve Bennett didn’t know Trek all that well when they started, but then they did what creators always do when they took on a new project: research. They watched the show and learned what they needed to know to work on it. Just like the dozens of freelance writers who came in to work for the TV series, not because they were fans, but because they were working writers who wanted a paycheck. Heck, the people who wrote the first season of TOS couldn’t have been fans, because the show wasn’t on the air yet! And yet the episodes they wrote laid the foundations for the whole universe. So it’s an incredibly nonsensical argument to claim that someone not being a fan means they’re not qualified to do a good job.
And that line’s just as tired and hackneyed as the “not a fan” one. Speaking as a lifelong Trek fan, I resent the assumption of the people who dislike the Abrams films to assume that they’re entitled to speak for fandom as a whole or that their point of view represents the consensus of fandom. They don’t outnumber the fans who like the new films, they just outshout them. The 2009 film is the most critically and financially successful Star Trek film in history. The claim of the Abrams-bashers that it’s some widely hated film is a complete and egregious lie. STID wasn’t as well-regarded, no, but then, neither was ST:TMP (though I loved it) or ST V, and the franchise bounced back from those.
Everything Chris is saying here is true. I can’t repeat enough times that this is Kennedy’s show.